Heretical Schismatic
Why I'm not Roman Catholic or Orthodox
Since this seems to be a theme for me lately . . . .
I have no bone to pick with the Romans or the Eastern Church. As I've said before, I have a great respect for the R/Os. I don't know if Western civilization would have survived without them, especially the Roman Church. Emperor Constantine was both a blessing and a curse to the Church and his influence is still felt in the Church today, even in the far edges of the Protestant Church.
I have been called a heretical schismatic by a Roman and though I took it as a badge of honor I do not consider myself to be protesting anything, only disagreeing on a few points that marked, and still mark the Reformed Church (aka - the Protestant Church by the R/Os).
Anyway, as I've been giving thought to the issue lately, I came across a great quote by C.S. Lewis who is, in my opinion, one of the defining voices for understanding reformed Christianity.
"And now we begin to see what it is that the New Testament is always talking about. It talks about Christians ‘being born again’; it talks about them ‘putting on Christ’; about Christ ‘being formed in us’; about our coming to ‘have the mind of Christ’.
Put right out of your head the idea that these are only fancy ways of saying that Christians are to read what Christ said and try to carry it out—as a man may read what Plato or Marx said and try to carry it out. They mean something much more than that. They mean that a real Person, Christ, here and now, in that very room where you are saying your prayers, is doing things to you. It is not a question of a good man who died two thousand years ago. It is a living Man, still as much a man as you, and still as much God as He was when He created the world, really coming and interfering with your very self; killing the old natural self in you and replacing it with the kind of self He has. At first, only for moments. Then for longer periods. Finally, if all goes well, turning you permanently into a different sort of thing; into a new little Christ, a being which, in its own small way, has the same kind of life as God; which shares in His power, joy, knowledge and eternity."
- Mere Christianity
I can't claim to have studied R/O doctrine deeply though I know a few R/Os - mostly Rs - but I have never encountered anything in the Roman or Orthodox realm that comes anywhere close to such clear and forthright statements of the Gospel as are found in the Reformed branch of the Church. Whenever I begin to consider the state of the Reformed Church and all the wacky stuff that goes on and all the wacky people on its fringes and I begin to consider the possibility of going Roman I take a breath, read my Bible and some Lewis.
And, that is why I am not Roman or Orthodox.
And, that is why I am not Roman or Orthodox.
I'll state right off that I don't belong to a church. What I do like about the R/O's are the spiritual practices they have in their toolboxes. Compared with the reformed church where the religion is "all in their heads".
ReplyDeleteHowever, I don't see myself kissing icons in the near future.
I do strongly believe this, if you seek God he will help you find Him regardless of where you are. So, I suppose it doesn't really matter what flavor of Christianity you prefer -within reasonable limits.
I'm with you John. There is much I appreciate about the R/Os, more actually than the differences I may have. I will challenge you a little, though. It holds to Scripture, tradition, reason and the Spirit that we need to be connected to a local body. Personally, I would not last long in this wicked world were it not for my brothers and sisters and the opportunities we have to meet and break bread together.
DeleteI will admit that not belonging to a physical church is a failure on my part. Makes me a bit of a parasite. A High Anglican would probably be a best fit for my wife and me.
DeleteAnd of course we could spend countless hours discussing what the "reasonable limits" are.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking as one who believes that God finds us all where we are, and touches us accordingly (in other words, I have no interest in winning converts to any flavor of Christianity) - it is my understanding, based in part on what I'm gleaning from my RCIA classes, that what Lewis speaks of here is pretty much the whole point of Communion; hence the encouragement to practice it as frequently as possible.
ReplyDeleteRCIA?
DeleteYes, Lewis, at least in my mind, is not speaking exclusively to Protestants but to the body at large - i.e. The Church. I don't think any R/O would disagree in principle with his statement, I just don't recall ever having read or heard an R/O making such an evangelistic statement.
RCIA is the class you have to take to be confirmed in the church. Most people do it as teenagers, but I skipped that part growing up, and my husband never went to any church, period. So we're both doing it now.
DeleteAnyway, the way we're being taught is quite clearly in line with that idea - that we are not merely to show up at church and follow the routines and that's it. Rather, the whole point of, well, all of it, is to be transformational. Specifically, it all serves to lead us to Christ, and to change us in the process.
"Heretical Schismatic" -- Didn't Gillette used make those?
ReplyDeleteMy problem, too, aside from being raised by evangelicals, is that I read too much Lewis when I started getting straightened out. I love my Catholic friends. I have great respect for a number of priests I've known and for the nun, Sister Gloria, who used to teach my son. I'm sure she'll go to heaven just for not killing him. I also really appreciate Father Stephen and our poetic friend River who are Orthodox.
I agree with Julie that we connect in different ways. I think Communion is a powerful connection for a lot of people. I don't think I'm one of them.
No no, that was the Schickmatic Heretical.
DeleteJulie, am I correct it thinking catechism class?
ReplyDeleteForgive me if I seem to belabor but being the new guy around here I feel properly obligated for the sake of mutual understanding to explain myself a little.
It seems we're travelers on the same road, having just met and sharing our stories as we walk.
Yes, it's a catechism class. And lest it come across any other way, I wholeheartedly agree that we are fellow travelers :) We may have just met, but I've known your lovely wife for years, and clearly she married someone as wonderful as she is. So if I come out with a different perspective, please know that it is purely from respect; also, quite often I'm trying to figure out what I think about something as I'm writing.
ReplyDeleteFor roughly eight years, now, my church was almost entirely made of this online community of travelers. If I were alone, I truly believe they'd be all the church, community, and pathway to communion I'd need. Unfortunately, this virtual church will not suffice for my family. The biggest reason I leaned Catholic is I was initially raised that way, mostly, and so it's like coming home. My husband came to it of his own accord; as he sees it, it's the only option.
To get to a roundabout point, what "going to church" actually entails, and what the Average Catholic believes, is still something I am just beginning to understand. I believe you when you say that no R or O had put things that way; I get the impression (possibly erroneously; oddly, I don't really know many Catholics) that a lot of Catholics go because that's how they were raised and that's What One Does, but they are fuzzy on the depth of it all. Or else that they take some things as given, and so it just doesn't ever come up in discussion.
I will say that reading MotT, books by Hans Urs von Balthasar, Ratzinger/ Benedict, and a few others picked up at OC over the years really feed my hunger for spiritual depth.
I can't recommend most of them, exactly; it's the sort of stuff that sings to you if it's right for you, and thuds if not. But along the lines of the Lewis quote, you might appreciate von Balthasar's Heart of the World, which struck me, when I first read it, as quite possibly the most beautiful thing I had ever read. And for clarity, it is not any kind of apologetics for Catholicism, but rather a sort of poetry exploring who Christ is. YMMV, of course.
Thanks Julie. I've just been looking around Amazon's "Heart of the World" preview and also doing a little Wiki background. I'm intrigued, like what I've seen and have put him on my list.
DeleteLikewise, I can highly recommend C.S. Lewis and George MacDonald (who's works you can find for free on Kindle).
Thanks. I have read some Lewis, and a bit of MacDonald. They are both wonderful; I really should read more...
DeleteI like all the authors mentioned, as well as quite a few others, such as Merton, Eckhart, and many more featured at Bob's blog.
ReplyDeleteStill got a lot of reading to do and it looks like I'll never run out of good books to read, as well as rereading some, occasionally.
What a blessing that so much wisdom and knowledge is at our fingertips! The great thing about the internet is being able to find fellow Truth seekers, as well as writers I might have never heard about without it.
As Julie mentioned, not every writer is everyone's cup of tea, or mug of beer, but there's plenty to go around, no matter what church or particular beliefs one adheres to.
There's always deeper waters to explore, thank God.
As I grow older I understand just how little I gno but that jest encourages me to delve deeper.
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ReplyDelete"I do not consider myself to be protesting anything, only disagreeing on a few points that marked, and still mark the Reformed Church (aka - the Protestant Church by the R/Os)."
ReplyDeleteI need to make a retraction/clarification:
Technically, the Reformed Church is that branch of the Church that follows Calvinistic theology. I am not a Calvinist. In my ignorance I intended to express that I am of the Reformation movement which includes Luther, Calvin, The Church of England, and many others. Whereas Luther wanted to reform (renew) the Church by taking her back to her early doctrines. Calvin, it seems, wanted to re-form the Church by introducing a few doctrines that are either not found or are re-definitions of classic Church doctrine. Nevertheless, like the R/Os, there is more that I agree with than disagree with in Reformed theology.
Yes! Thank you for this! I have read a great deal about Orthodoxy in recent months and greatly admire Fr. Stephen at Glory to God for All Things (and others) but THIS is the bottom line, the foundation, the point at which one must decide--and every iota of my being says you and Lewis are right!
ReplyDeleteWow! To be mentioned in the same sentence with Lewis. I'm not worthy. Seriously, thank you for your comment. I'm glad that sharing my walk is a help.
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